《越人歌》究竟唱了些什么？ - Powered by Discuz! Archiver

徐伯鸿 发表于 2009-7-20 01:56

在出土文献中，有没有与《越人歌》沾点边的材料？有哪位朋友知道吗？要是有，请贴点出来！谢谢！［此主题已被徐伯鸿在 2009-7-19 18:41:02 编辑过］

徐伯鸿 发表于 2009-7-20 02:26

看看这段用楚语（暂且以为是这样）记录的越歌“今夕何夕兮？搴洲中流，今日何日兮？得与王子同舟。蒙羞被好兮，不訾诟耻。心几烦而不绝兮 ，得知王子 。山中有木兮 ，木有枝，心悦君兮君不知。”的用韵，与出土楚简中的哪段文字的用韵最为接近？哪位贴个帖？谢谢！

Percy 发表于 2009-7-20 06:27

我是没有时间，如果用音近通假，肯定有古文字的高人可以将它翻译出来。

dyjm 发表于 2009-7-20 20:39

转一篇文章，让大家看看不同观点。 <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720123956.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/200972012403.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124013.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124021.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124030.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124039.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124047.jpg> <img border=0 onload=javascript:DrawImage(this); src=UpFile/UpAttachment/2009-7/2009720124056.jpg> ［此主题已被 dyjm 在 2009-7-20 12:41:00 编辑过］

marc 发表于 2009-7-20 21:33

有件事想跟徐先生說,
現今湖北湖南四川語言都不是從前古代的居民講的話
三國到五代的荊州話早不是楚語(有人認為江西萍鄉話是楚語)
張獻忠之後湖廣平川,三國的蜀語早就消失了
湖南的湘語要找老湘語,現在的湘語都是官話系統
我懷疑侗族語是古代越語殘留的論點
越人號稱百越,浙江福建粵東贛南都有
浙江的漢初七國之亂後就整個遷移到安徽
福建的(僰族)到唐朝逐漸同化於閩南,客家
真要說,還不如找亰族(現在的越南)還可能有些關係

marc 发表于 2009-7-20 22:09

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">百越族，是居於中國南方和古代越人有關各個不同族群總稱。文獻上稱為<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">“<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">百粵<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">”<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">、<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">“<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">粵<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">”<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">，分佈甚廣，內部<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">“<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">各有種姓<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">”<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">，雜處於中國南方各地。中國歷史上，整個江南之地，所謂<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">“<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-ke

marc 发表于 2009-7-20 22:09

有人認為越語與今壯侗語系的語言十分接近<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">(<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">陳國強<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體"> 2000)<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">。<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體"> <SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">百越族的生活、風俗習慣也有特點，主要是﹕斷髮文身；契臂為盟；多食海產；巢居；善使舟及水戰；以及善鑄銅器，如青銅劍、銅鐸<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">(<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">大鈴<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">)<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">等<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體">(<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">陳國強<SPAN lang=EN-US style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-fareast-font-family: 新細明體"> 2000)<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-font-kerning: 1.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: ZH-TW; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-ascii-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-hansi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">。<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 新細明體; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Rom

维天有汉 发表于 2009-7-20 23:45

楼主可曾关注郑张尚芳先生对越人歌的研究？

徐伯鸿 发表于 2009-7-21 00:06

一、“現今湖北湖南四川語言都不是從前古代的居民講的話
三國到五代的荊州話早不是楚語(有人認為江西萍鄉話是楚語)
張獻忠之後湖廣平川,三國的蜀語早就消失了”   说得是！
二、“我懷疑侗族語是古代越語殘留的論點
越人號稱百越,浙江福建粵東贛南都有
浙江的漢初七國之亂後就整個遷移到安徽
福建的(僰族)到唐朝逐漸同化於閩南,客家
真要說,還不如找亰族(現在的越南)還可能有些關係”   说得也有道理！［此主题已被徐伯鸿在 2009-7-20 16:12:22 编辑过］

徐伯鸿 发表于 2009-7-21 00:26

“还得参考现代方言中的北方官话的次方言的“湖北话”和湘方言的“湖南话”。”
现在的“湖北话”和“湖南话”当然不是“楚语”，只是，这里面有没有残留（吸收）一些“楚语”的词汇。就连安徽蚌埠、怀远一带的话里也残留有“楚语”的词汇。［此主题已被徐伯鸿在 2009-7-20 17:29:15 编辑过］

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